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Episode #39 - Combining Passion and Career with Heather Monthie, PhD

This week, the guys welcome Heather Monthie, PhD, who's illustrious career has blended her passions for cybersecurity, aviation, and education. She has been an integral part of K-12 and university education systems, developing STEM programs that build a stronger technology workforce.

Heather shares her insight about the world of cybersecurity education, plus valuable advice and resources for anyone looking to work toward a career in technology.  

Learn more about Heather:

Find her podcast:

Pick up your copy of Cyber Rants on Amazon.
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Be sure to rate the podcast, leave us a review, and subscribe!

Mike's Headlines:

Microsoft Exchange Servers Scanned for ProxyShell Vulnerability, Patch Now

NCSC Sticks by 'Three Random Words' Strategy for Passwords


Hackers Netting Average of Nearly $10,000 for Stolen Network Access

SMBs Increasingly Vulnerable to Ransomware, Despite the Perception They Are Too Small to Target

 New AdLoad Malware Variant Slips Through Apple's XProtect Defenses

 Home and Small Business Routers Under Attack – How to See If You Are At Risk

Ransomware Gang Uses PrintNightmare to Breach Windows Servers
: Microsoft Patch Tuesday Security Updates Fix PrintNightmare Flaws

Microsoft Confirms Another Windows Print Spooler Zero-day Bug

Hackers Take $600m in 'Biggest' Cryptocurrency Theft

Threat Actors Behind the Poly Network Hack are Returning Stolen Funds

Synology Warns of Malware Infecting NAS Devices with Ransomware
Why Ransomware is Such a Threat to Critical Infrastructure

CVE-2021-20090 Actively Exploited to Target Millions of IoT Devices Worldwide

One Million Stolen Credit Cards Leaked to Promote Carding Market

welcome to the cyber rants podcast where we're all  about sharing the forbidden secrets and slightly  
embellished truths about corporate cyber security  programs we're ranting we're raving and we're  
telling you the stuff that nobody talks about  on their fancy website and trade show giveaways  
all to protect you from cyber criminals and now  here's your hosts mike rotondo zach fuller and  
lauro chavez hello and welcome to the cyber ants  podcast this is your co-host zach fuller joined  
by mike rotondo and lauro chavez and today we also  have a special guest dr heather monty heather hey  
thank you for joining us today look forward to  this conversation and chat in a bit about your  
background and experience so looking forward  to what we have to come here shortly and mike  
hey hey it's our pleasure mike do you want  to kick us off with the news before we  
dive into it here hey zach welcome heather um  real quick we have a ton of news this week but  
i'm gonna hit four things real quick so check  out the podcast site uh for some additional  
stuff real quick microsoft exchange server  scan for proxy shell vulnerability patch now  
what's happening is basically there are three  vulnerabilities that were patched previously  
they did an exploit at black hat showed  if you strung these three together  
it actually created a new vulnerability so patch  up your exchange servers asap check out microsoft  
for that more more information ncsc has come out  with a three random words strategy for passwords  
uh they're saying enforcing complex passwords  complex requirements for passwords is a poor  
defense against guessing attacks this is  because minds struggle to remember random  
character strings and being human we use  predictable patterns according to verizon  
compromise passwords are responsible for 81  of hacking related data breaches so faced with  
making another specific password requirement ncse  recommends you string three random words together  
throwing some characters and it's a better  way of doing it so might want to give that  
a try got 3k that's the market rate for stolen  corporate credentials there's two articles on  
this today i'm going to string them together the  other one is hackers nanny average of nearly ten  
thousand dollars for stolen network access stolen  credentials are always in high demand from cyber  
criminals to use for identity theft or slipping  unseen in networks stolen corporate credentials  
typically selling the dark web for 3k however  stolen user account for high ranking employee  
with large corporation has been reserves observed  selling for and this is not a made up number 120 k  
online a cyber security team has identified nearly  26 million stolen credentials affiliated with  
the top 1 000 companies in america being shopped  around online i verified none of them are silent  
the hackers netting average of nearly ten  thousand stolen network access this is a  
dovetail on this it talks about it how they're  available on russian and english language forums  
so be really careful with your accounts change  your passwords regularly and make sure you  
implement 2mfa or something else real quickly just  i'm going to hit two or three top headlines but  
please check these out smb is increasingly  vulnerable to ransomware despite the perception  
they are too small to target there's a new ad load  malware variant that's slipping through apple's x  
protect defenses uh this is even after the most  recent patch so be careful and lastly home and  
small business routers are under attack and then  there's a list out there of what's available  
and what's being what's at risk and there's a  bunch more microsoft uh prim nightmare ones but  
other than that i'm going to stop there lauro any  exploits yeah i got a few this week and you know  
to your point about those uh home routers you know  check if you haven't been familiar with showdown  
check that site out they index all kinds of  stuff that's connected to the internet of things  
so you'll be surprised what you find there this  weekend exploits we got a couple things i think  
are interesting first there are two exploits for  the police crime record management system 1.0 so  
if you're a law enforcement organization out there  and your administrative branch or administrative  
operations are using this this pcr rm for crime  management make sure you're checking that out  
there's uh case details sql injection and there's  multiple stored cross-site scripting all over the  
all over the application now the most concerning  though is the sql injections you can get case  
details without being authenticated so check  that out and of course back in the exploit news  
today is the 80s bachelor dirty man wordpress  two more plugins this week picture gallery 1.4.2  
there's a stored cross-site scripting for that so  make sure you patch that plug-in or remove it and  
then if you're using lifter learning management  system one of the new plug-in lms's that wordpress  
is offering you can access other student grades  and answers beating via directory um directory  
structure so uh check those two plugins out that  was picture gallery and lifter lms where was that  
stuff that's it yeah seriously that's what i was  thinking that's like i was like hey that's not  
that's not such a bad who's using lifter lms  let's check all those grades and answers from  
the tests and we'll just cheat could have gone  from c's get degrees to b minuses or b pluses  
at least yeah easy easy well thank you birds  for that a lot of interesting stuff happening  
wordpress not so interesting that's pretty much  daily occurrence but uh i left the microsoft ones  
out for the most part on that list i'm gonna stop  talking about wordpress to be honest it's just bad  
every week maybe we just put a note on the podcast  description like watch out for wordpress want even  
more cyber ants be sure to subscribe to the cyber  rants podcast get your copy of our best-selling  
book cyber rants on amazon today this podcast is  brought to you by silent sector the firm dedicated  
to building world-class cyber security programs  for mid-market and emerging companies across the  
u.s silent sector also provides industry-leading  penetration tests and cyber risk assessments  
visit and contact us today well  on the bigger and better things here we have a  
special guest with us dr heather monty and heather  you have a tremendous background i'm going to  
attempt to touch on some key points and would  love to hear hear more but heather is is really  
passionate about cyber security and technology  education and also aviation and she's been able  
to kind of blend these passions um throughout  her career which is which is a really cool  
thing to be able to do to be able to make you  know make your passion your career so she's uh  
been a professor of i.t and information security  as well as associate dean of technology at grand  
canyon university she's even developed programs  for not only universities but also k through 12  
education around stem and cyber security and i.t  so a lot of experience in the education world  
and also tremendous education yourself a  bachelor's in computer science master's in  
teaching with computer science emphasis phd and  information technology um commercial pilot license  
with instrument rating faa certified flight  instructor um heather forgive me i probably  
have missed a bunch of things but i know now your  principal cyber security architect for fortune 500  
um working in the aerospace which got us  must be seeing some interesting things there  
board of directors for the arizona cyber  initiative which is a non-profit for high school  
cyber security education um a founder you founded  educators drone which apparently is just exploding  
but a global community of teachers and parents  and pilots basically using using drones to  
encourage and support stem education initiative  and and that's sounds like a lot more interesting  
you know stuff than a lot of the things that i  did in in school so that's the students these days  
have some pretty cool opportunities we also have um check out podcasts there  
and she's got a lot of great information  about cyber security awareness and education  
um as well as cyber security for business  and i i t and cyber security careers as well  
and then also as um and we'll  put those links on our podcast page as well but  
heather thank you again for joining us what did  i what did i miss what else can you tell us about  
your career and and how you got started how that  legend where you where you went today yeah i just  
you know i just don't like to be bored i don't  like to sit around and you know just do nothing  
don't mind you know i do take time and you  know sit down and watch tv here and there but  
you know i just i i just don't like being bored  i think that you know a young age i was exposed  
to um aviation uh i took a field trip to the  airport um in kindergarten and just got exposed  
to aviation there and it's really sort of been a  a lifelong passion of mine and um you know over  
over the years i was trying to i was trying  to figure out how to make it my career  
and i was fully on the uh airline pilot track and  i was taking all my uh flying lessons getting all  
my flight ratings but i was also working on a  backup degree in computer science um because uh  
you know if if something happens health-wise you  know you can no longer be an airline pilot so i  
was working on sort of this back-up degree right  and then uh 9 11 happened and the airline industry  
just completely completely tanked for obvious  reasons and there just were no jobs and so i kind  
of had to okay take a take a step back and say  all right you know i've got this flight instructor  
license i've got this degree in computer science  which way am i going to go and i i kind of went  
you know obviously i went the computer science  route and i've kept aviation a hobby of mine my  
whole life and it's really cool because now here  we are 20 20 years later and i've been able to  
you know bring bring the two passions you know  back together um i think that you know as as  
technology has advanced so has um air travel space  travel um and and the use of drones and businesses  
that technology is is quickly advancing and as  those uh aircraft i call them flying data centers  
now or flying computers they're they're connected  um there's there's threats when you have you know  
connected devices and um it's it's a it's an  exciting time it's a scary time but it's also  
a very exciting time for you know people that  are that are interested in this kind of stuff
that's uh it's a good path and i think the two  you know the the disciplines go very very well  
hand in hand i mean obviously cyber security's  critical in the you know in the aircraft  
industry uh the aerospace industry in general um  pretty amazing stuff with starting off with your  
you know your realm in the in the world or  your your experience in the realm of education  
um what uh you know i'd love to hear  because we have a lot of listeners that are  
looking to get into the cyber security field  or technology fields or really have a passion  
and interest in this but may not you know may not  be doing it for a living yet um you know what is  
the state of cyber security and i.t education  in schools i mean i know it's come a long way  
you know when i was a kid we just had very basic  computer classes on apple two e's and stuff and  
that's kind of where it stopped but there's a  lot out there today what what is going on in  
that world and where do you see it headed yeah  i think that their cyber security education has  
come a long way in the last even just 10 years you  know i mean i don't even know when the first cyber  
security degree was offered but you know 15 20  years ago like you know people that are a little  
bit older don't necessarily have degrees in um in  cyber security i think that for people that are  
interested in starting a career in cyber security  and and maybe you're a little bit older you  
don't necessarily have to have a degree in cyber  security so say you've got a degree in business or  
you know history or you know english something  like that those are all valuable skills that  
that you can bring to the cyber security  discipline you don't necessarily need to  
go back to school to get a full bachelor's degree  there's a lot of you know certification trainings  
that are available out there there's you know  shorter programs boot camps micro credentials  
even getting you can even consider getting a  master's degree that you don't necessarily need to  
have a bachelor's degree in cyber security there  um but just know that that just because you don't  
necessarily have sort of what you might think  is the traditional training or the traditional  
tech background i guess that that should not stop  you from pursuing a career in cyber security um  
there's there's a lot of writing that goes  in with cyber security so people that have  
degrees in english and people that maybe you know  political science stuff like that where they're  
they're very good writers they're very good  communicators um there's a lot of opportunities  
a lot of opportunities there so um what i you know  my my little nugget of advice would be is don't  
think that you need to go back to school to get  a four-year degree in cybersecurity especially if  
you already have a bachelor's degree there's  there's a place for you in cyber security  
in fact one of us on this call has a bachelor's  in history so i'm glad you brought that up  
good good yes yeah you know there's there's a lot  to be said for people that have you know liberal  
arts degrees you bring it you bring a different  uh perspective um you know sometimes you get  
people like myself i'm very technical you know  math is my favorite you know classes in school  
very analytical person is very black and white um  sometimes people with you know with the liberal  
arts background they can they can they can  they bring a different perspective they can  
look at things a little bit differently they  can see gray areas a little bit better it's a  
it's something that you should definitely  market about yourself and uh that you bring  
that to the table for potential employers  honestly i just wanted out of college no  
well it worked out didn't it mike of course  well that's i mean i know mike you talk a lot  
too about um the importance of writing right and  it's like it's a critical skill set that so many  
people miss they're they're so focused on being  in the technology itself uh they forget about that  
somebody has to communicate this stuff to the  outside world yeah that's the one thing where  
i just end up telling what you're saying about  liberal arts because you do have the ability  
to communicate and cross that bridge and writing  documentation as boring and drudgery as it can be  
i don't know if that's a word but anyway having  that background and doing all the writing i did  
for my for my liberal arts degree it did help  yeah it's amazing the opportunities you know to  
to get started i mean lauro started it you  know you started your career in the army  
um well even before that but um i guess job-wise  started in the army and then um you know for for  
me to get in this field was through certifications  sounds like there's there's no right answer  
uh across the board it's just what what are your  interests and and where your skill sets gonna take  
you where do you wanna involve right and you don't  and and you don't necessarily always have to start  
with the security plus certification like yeah  i see that a lot you know i'm in a lot of online  
forums trying to help answer questions and that  and usually it's always i want to get started in  
cyber security where should i get started and the  answer always seems to be get the security plus  
certification that's a fantastic certification  but there's so many different career paths  
um i sort of liken it to the medical profession  now where you don't say you know i'm going to go  
into the medical field well what specifically  in the medical field are you going to be a  
phlebotomist are you going to you know be  an rn are you going to be a neurosurgeon  
are you going to work in insurance um there's  there's there's so many different options and  
and a one one step career path is not  necessarily it it's you've really got to  
identify what it is that you want to do and then  and to develop a career path and a plan from there  
yeah i'm glad you brought that up i mean i i  wouldn't even my advice to people i haven't  
been through some various certs i wouldn't even  bother with the security plus certification unless  
you've done the network plus certification um  you know a lot of people do jump in that and they  
struggle because they don't understand how the  infrastructure works um but um yeah a lot so many  
so many things out there what about so there's  there's all this opportunity and i mean it's  
and you don't have to pay a bunch of money you  don't have to go into a bunch of um get a bunch  
of student loans or go into debt or anything  which is which is outstanding because there's  
so much free stuff online as well to be able to  study for these certifications and all that but  
but with despite the fact that you know all these  things are available do you think there's enough  
people going in to cyber security or rit education  in general you know regardless of its whether it's  
through university system or certifications i  mean it seems like demands keep increasing but  
i'm curious to see what your what you've seen on  the kind of the top of funnel so to speak people  
going into the business right yeah i don't think  that there's enough people going in if you look at  
there's a website called and it's a  it's a collaboration between comptia and they use  
bls data to show where there's jobs there's open  jobs in cyber security in the united states and  
they're showing right around 300 350 000 open jobs  just in the us alone there's over 3 million open  
in throughout the world there's there's not enough  people going into this as a profession i think  
for a couple different reasons i think for some  people it's scary they don't understand it they  
they you know hollywood makes this into like this  you got your hoodie on you're sitting in a dark  
room although i am sitting in a dark room right  now but um you know they make it like this this  
this elusive thing right right and it's it's  to some people that's really cool to put to  
a lot of people that's just they don't understand  it they don't get it um and so i think that that's  
one thing i think if if hollywood would have  you know sort of a csi show but you know uh  
cyber security edition um you know that that would  help help drive interest in the field the other  
thing is that you know i if you look at the open  jobs that are out there they're all in you know  
mid to senior management positions so you know as  we're getting people coming into the profession  
you know you're starting out as an entry-level  employee in cyber security generally um but the  
openings are in you know the mid to senior level  uh management and that's why i'm saying that  
these these professional skills are  sometimes called your soft skills are  
so very important being able to communicate and  being able to to write well and communicate well  
because in those types of positions you're  going to be working with senior leadership  
and you're going to be um you know trying  to get buy-in on things and influence and  
and help make decisions and that kind of thing and  so you need to be able to do that so in order to  
you know increase that you know availability of  people that want to get into middle and senior  
management positions we need to have those people  coming in on the on the on the on the front end  
on the entry-level side but then there also  needs to be people that are willing to mentor  
and um train people on becoming you know  a manager like just because you're good at  
something just because you're good at something  technology wise doesn't necessarily make you a  
good manager a good leader so there needs to  be that you know that mentorship or that those  
training programs out there as well um and so i  think that you know if we can just do a better  
job i guess showing people what careers in cyber  security really look like and that what what are  
those career paths and then the different routes  that you can take and that you're not necessarily  
just going to be sitting in a dark basement  somewhere you know with your hoodie on and  
you know writing code all day that i think that  that that that would change things i just you know  
there's there's definitely not enough people going  into this profession we're we're we're at war  
right now and uh we need all the help we can get  i always wanted to be hugh jackman and swordfish  
yeah that that was pretty headed hydra that you  stashed on the yeah with my six monitors yeah  
yep you gotta okay so question i have a question  for you guys then so how many monitors do you have  
in your setup i have three okay i have three  i have i'm boring i have i have one plus the  
laptop next to it one another one real one one  small one i have well i'm in the airstream so i  
have five three they descend from the ceiling and  they're the gaming style 13-inch high resolution  
so they're a little smaller and then i have  the two laptops that's right if you weren't  
in the airstream how many would you have so at  the house of the stand-up desk i had 227s and i  
thought that with a laptop with it with a 16-inch  mac and i i thought that was fantastic there you  
go so the stereotype is there for a reason right  but you know uh it's not it's not it's not every  
it's not everybody in cyber security yeah it just  depends on how much multitasking space you need  
really and so i think that's really what it is is  i like to have one screen that's just my email so  
the other screen's really like the workspace you  know and so i don't yes i really don't need six
but you wouldn't mind having six i would know what  to do with six i mean i just have to put i'd have  
to put command terminals up there running like  like p minus l or something you know just to keep  
it or ping minus t rather just to keep it going so  i have something on the screen now now i could i  
find it very useful when i'm doing sat2 audits  because i can have multiple large spreadsheets  
up at the same time so you have the ability to  read multiple documents at the same time right  
so if you have one up on each screen you can just  read them both you got two eyes for a reason man  
yeah that's that they do that their skill set  they don't teach enough in schools you know
well you know there's a lot of interesting uh  stuff out there now i think i think one other  
problem is there's almost if you start to look  about at information advice and how to get into  
cyber security and cyber security courses  it's almost i don't want to say there's too  
much i think there's i think there's a an  excellent amount and there there should  
always be more available but i think it might be  information overload for people looking to get in  
to this business right off the bat there's  sometimes too many choices is not a good thing  
so what what would you give what would you tell  somebody going in to it a student or somebody  
looking to change careers how can they define  what's right for them and what what the right  
approach is for them yeah there's a uh nist has  created the cybersecurity workforce framework  
that really helps to define some of the work  roles within cyber security uh it's it it  
doesn't i don't think it covers every career  available in cyber security but it covers a  
a big portion of them and so for example say  you're uh say you're a software developer  
you you know you know how to write code and  you've designed your applications and that kind  
of thing and you want to make the switch to cyber  security there's there's a huge need for people  
that understand the secure software development  life cycle so what you can do is you can go  
to uh if you just type in the google the nist  cybersecurity workforce framework it comes  
right up and there's a tool that that you put in  that sort of the work role and it will give you  
the um the competencies that you need  to be able to do that that work role  
um so then from there then you can go and figure  out what what kind of training you might you might  
need i do agree that there's there's there's a lot  of there's a lot of really good information out  
there and there's a lot of really bad information  out there too um and so it it can be daunting for  
people especially if you don't know like if i were  trying to go into you know something that i knew  
absolutely nothing about and i didn't know  what kind of what kinds of questions to ask  
that would be you know very intimidating so i  think that that's where you know schools come  
into place where it's a place that you can go  to or training companies you know obviously  
they're gonna want you to purchase their  product and enroll in their programs right  
but they'll have people there that you know can  help you figure out what is okay what is it that  
you're really interested in about cyber security  and then let's let's let's figure out a pathway  
for you that's excellent i i did not know um about  that i haven't haven't researched that that kind  
of thing lately so i appreciate you sharing that  um and i think for a lot of listeners it'll be  
some really valuable um information to look into  so and before we wrap up tell us a little bit  
about your your interest and kind of what you're  doing with drones um that's just an interesting  
and interesting topic and i'd be curious to see  kind of what the what the crossover is when it  
comes to um cyber security technology and and  drones and and uh how you see that industry  
evolving yeah i think that in 2017 i think  it was i was kind of just paying attention to  
where drone technology was going and i was looking  at prices of things and i'm looking at them saying  
it's not going to be long before these some of  these drones are going to be under a hundred  
dollars um which means a couple things that that  more and more people buy them um and also it makes  
them makes them much more affordable to bring  into a classroom and you know i'm thinking like  
k-12 like trying to get kids you know interested  in you know stem and i with my aviation background  
my technology background i'm looking at this going  you can teach just about anything related to stem  
so science technology engineering and math you can  teach just about anything using a drone you can  
teach weather you can teach aerodynamics you can  teach engineering design you can you know there's  
there's so much stuff that you can teach with  them and then as i was watching i thought well  
what wouldn't it be cool if somebody developed  a drone that was under 100 but also came with  
a software development kit so that you could you  you could write code that you could execute on the  
drone and so um there's a couple out there that  are available now they starting in like 2018 2019  
you know the technology became more affordable so  they're available now and so what you can do is  
you can work with block programming languages so  scratch is one that mit has developed but then  
there's you know some other block programming  languages so anybody that's written code before  
knows that you can be missing a semicolon and  it can drive you nuts for an entire weekend  
and so the idea with block coding is that it takes  away that initial frustration of learning syntax  
and you're just you're clicking and dragging  and you're putting together a computer program  
and then when you execute that program  the drone goes and does whatever it is  
that you told it to do so it's sort of your  introduction to autonomous flight so you've  
created this program where you tell the drone to  um to climb to 10 feet and then you tell it to  
roll to the left or roll to the right 90 degrees  or you know descend another five feet and move  
forward 50 feet you know things like that and what  happens then is kids can see when they're when  
they're writing a program and then they execute  it on a drone and the drone goes and does what  
they they told it to do they can very easily see  where they made mistakes where like no i really  
i wanted it to turn right here not left okay and  then they can go back through and they can find  
their errors where when you are you know writing  a program on a computer and then you're executing  
and things are running in the background you can't  necessarily see it um kids you know that that's  
very abstract and kids don't necessarily have  that um that that abstract thinking just yet so  
this is a much more concrete way of them of to see  what it is that they're coding me being a pilot i  
asked a couple of my friends i was like wouldn't  would anybody be interested in like helping out  
if i started this like group for teachers  who wanted to use drones in their classroom  
and we can answer questions for them and so a  couple people are like yeah it's a fantastic  
idea so i started a facebook group started as  a facebook group and um it's just it's blown up  
over the last three years or so since i started it  and we've got people in seven different countries  
and they're all people that they're either they're  either like homeschool parents um they're they're  
school teachers they're community college teachers  we've got some university professors in there  
um but anybody that's really interested in drones  and stem education everybody's sharing ideas and  
and sharing you know things that they're doing it  gets real busy during the summer for summer camps  
um in the group and it's just i don't know it's  exploding i have to do something more formal  
with it um just because i you know i'm getting  companies drone manufacturing companies coming  
to me saying like they want to you know they want  to be able to provide you know resources and stuff  
to the to the group and stuff and they have to you  know there's certain things need to be in place  
that kind of thing but i don't know it's just it's  one of those things like it was an idea and it  
i don't know it took off that's really they're  really awesome i look forward to seeing how it  
progresses and and to all our the listeners  out there um check out more information from um also uh check out the  cyber coffee talk podcast on your on your favorite  
podcast platform or go to  and there's a lot more information available  
heather how else can can people get a hold of  you or there are other resources that you that  
you would point them to that you have yeah if  you go to right in the middle  
of the page there's a link to all my like linkedin  facebook pinterest youtube all that kind of stuff  
i'm pretty much everywhere on the internet i love  it i think it's fantastic so um i'm very active on  
linkedin if you find me there you can shoot me a  message great and monty is spelled m-o-n-t-h-i-e
uh for those listening and we'll put a link in  the show notes as well well heather thank you so  
much for joining us this has been outstanding and  i just appreciate all your work in these different  
areas uh we need more we i mean we know we  need more cyber security professionals and  
um creating those different avenues and giving  them advice to get into the field and really help  
to help us protect our country is is so critical  right now and we'll i think we'll continue to  
be for the rest of our lives so i appreciate all  you do and thanks again for joining us thank you  
for having me does anybody else have any anybody  else have any final final thoughts or ideas they'd  
like to share before we wrap up i just want to  thank heather again you're such a beacon of light  
so thank you for all you do thanks thanks  and stay in school and don't do drugs  
yes excellent excellent advice excellent  advice well thank you everybody for listening  
to the cyber ants podcast if you uh like the show  subscribe go to and there's  
a form there if you have any questions ideas  topics you'd like us to cover in future episodes  
we'd love to hear from you love your feedback  and thank you again have a great rest of your day